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tv   Conflict Zone - Guest Mateusz Morawiecki  Deutsche Welle  December 28, 2017 1:02am-1:31am CET

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strongholds in the country. make your smug. smile with a smile. but you. want to. update. that story. to. decide what. to double down. this week conflict zone is in warsaw where the polish government is facing mounting criticism from the e.u. over its record on democracy and human rights my guest is the deputy prime minister matteo. this is government ready to accept the concerns voiced by brussels or
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continue to reject them out of hand. but there's more of the welcome to conflicts on hello nice to be here with you we've seen some pretty harsh language between your government and the over your record on democracy and human rights last month your foreign minister actually referred to donald tusk president of the european council as an icon of evil and stupidity have at least slightly matches help your relations with the. i think that on both sides the language is sometimes too. strong here and and sometimes. it does not have in our relationships but also the symmetry of perception is a very important think we have to. do some changes which in the
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in germany was done twenty five years ago like for instance the commune is a sion of the former church where democrats are public was it was done in one thousand nine hundred one one thousand nine hundred seventy in east germany when we would later we would like to do the same here the who doesn't seem to see it in the same terms as and you know they've called it a systematic threat to the rule of law in poland this was from the european commission but that very important then very interesting because when for instance . in the czech republic or in germany there was this vetting or a very few cation of of the past of the prophets in the in the academia in the world of academia this was right when we tried to do the same in poland this was not right so let's let's have the same standards applied for all that but it seems your attitude to criticism is that you should should take it somewhere else
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zbigniew of your book your justice minister compared the e.u. oversight to nazi germany occupation opposed. i would definitely out there. for for simply the same standards like for instance if we if we see the situation in. in germany you were able twenty five years ago to may do a lot college i suppose statements like that well i think that in the context of different discussions different statements like that are made but at the end of the day it's it's about. the treatment of all the member states of the of the european union but it's also about listening to the legitimate criticisms from the union when you have signed up to the values of your queen you know and accepted that if the criticism is the duty. i'm welcoming this criticism because the democracy and
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liberal economic liberal democracy is all about being open to criticism so as always you like it it's fine but if you don't like it i just like racists if i don't like. criticism as well all i advocate for is also very equal treatment like for instance if if in german a year ago in. there was there were some events which were really not appearing on the surface because all the media treated this as a taboo it was not there was not criticize this was not criticised by the by the european union are you going commission but it was criticized widely in germany itself so the conventional law allows the commission. weeks after many weeks after after after it happened but you accept the right of the european union to say what it feels is part of the label in the video in the sister of a b. mall but they more pretty consistent in their belief that the rule of law and order and democracy is under threat whether they have
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a just or misunderstood the situation they got it all wrong is that they think they completely misunderstood the us isn't something for those well let's start let's start with the constitutional trigger not in the nether nonsense switzerland in luxembourg there is no constitutional problem of iran in the netherlands the there is a law which does not allow the judge restored the judge to talk to the side on the on the legislation made by you should by the proper parliament so why if this is all right why does the outgoing president of your constitutional court say the aim of the legislation that you've introduced is to destroy the court and to create a kind of pride. it counsel for our beloved leader i think humans mr kaczynski this is very badly this is a very very interesting person or the mr as opposed to because he is in fact a politician he's not a he was not on the chairman of the constitutional tribunal he was a politician who tried to support their leaders to understand what is happening in
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poland we have to make one statement for the first time over the last twenty seven years not for the for the but for the first time so strongly the vox populi so the a very strong voting in favor of some of different solution so lucius has been made and all of that established parties of the political establishment and economy because the basement and also judiciary establishment which was not changed in at the beginning of ninety's they are defending their. regimes is one thing that maybe this is one thing that is to reject the criticism from the ball but your own ombudsman who is charged under the constitution for protecting rights and freedoms in this country spoke of attempts to paralyze the constitutional court in poland so you haven't convinced him either no this is a this is a man with a very respectable job inside this elitist person if you if you talk about. adam
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now. he is at the very forefront is in the advantage of fighting for the previous establishments also it is politically tainted or desire here he's completely politics so he's not anybody if you have any who is against you is only leading on the you know normally some of the standing poll or the little that you talked criticism when i heard your perfect not a tough states perfect not at all if you ask anybody who really understands polish police new politics if if man is particularly tainted or not ninety nine percent would be would be telling you of course he's from the previous established. of course he is completely left wing so if i'm such a person who can say so or all of these arguments all of his arguments against the government you dismiss because they're politically tainted or not not not all of them if we talk openly and if we talk seen a studio of course we can understand of the sorts of different criticism and i'm
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just telling you that to understand the situation in poland. one can imagine that there was this post coming this era frozen for twenty five years and now this. period it started in poland and this and this is a completely different approach to many issues like the institutions institution let's i don't know what was lost or let's let's look at it when you're look at let's look at the court in the in the issues surrounding the court because on the one hand you know you say everything is fine with the court but we have a tribe you know a president president elected by what the e.u. considers a questionable procedure another judge elected on a legal basis that's found to be unconstitutional a challenge to the election of three sitting judges seven years after that election so why not european commission so loud and vocal in the summer of two thousand and
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fifteen when all the political parties for which were really mad back then were electing judges which completely in an unlawful way where their lives why were there well this silence while they are now but what we are asking why they were they were silent just one and a half years ago when such a drastic. breach of their of the law happened but you reject that as well then is that you would be net largest net recipient the e.u. for its. get excitable some money something like one hundred billion has been promised in twenty fourteen to twenty twenty. you and other members in eastern europe were given a pretty pretty blunt warning by the french president the other day who said europe isn't a cashbox so the self service restaurant the europe where you come and take what
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you need take your structural funds or get access to the internal market and then show no solidarity to the french or french president presidents are known sometimes for very strong words i remember which actually track into so dismissing those as well just very with me for two seconds jack's react think in two thousand and four or to doesn't read that we lost our opportunity to be silent we in the central europe so this is not equal treatment and not a level playing field and i'm not going to tell you just you know let me point out i would say in the treaty of rome we had those four famous freedoms freedom to the provide services movement of migrant workers movement of capital and goods and three of them are working very very well three of them which are working in favor of richer countries goods capital and people and the last one which could work very much in favor of the central european countries is maybe twenty percent working the
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freedom to provide services so i would say that we have to really rethink what was in and what was not implemented you don't treat you're talking about a rethink you're demanding basic changes to the e.u. itself the old structures decision making process your leader has to kaczynski said he wanted to see a new e.u. treaty. you a man if you would say thirty days a visit these are a lot of these are a lot of demands but the fact is you are among the loudest critics you were in the hungarian it's your your model for change is that of the self declared a liberal democracy hungary isn't it because last september before last september your party leader mr kaczynski said we are learning from viktor orban the prime minister what we are learning from example what hungary has done they have done a lot of good things to bring a new balance because it was completely tilted towards selling of the assets
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foreign companies and ownership in hungary and the economy after twenty five years of transformation was in one thousand nine hundred ninety percent in the hands of foreigners so viktor orban is trying to bring some more balance into this to what hungary has done is get itself condemned by a dozen countries last year the un's peer review process for among other things increasing hostility towards the media and civil society and intimidation of reprisals against government. and you seem to like that more not that you seem to like that i answer in following great what's the person teach of media in poland or in hungary i don't know it's precisely the situation one hundred five years ago but in poland in the hands of only one group i can i can answer this question ninety five percent is this. media approach to balance media a new phrase out of no journalists from the public media in this country we are
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doing two hundred twenty a call these are doing reporters without her doing well then and when we don't know it all the twenty percent or maybe twenty five percent of what our predecessors done why were you not asking predecessors those questions eight years ago or fifteen years ago why were you happy with post communism. communist governments are and are you not so happy i think that we have to all rethink our relationship because we are very much in all of these are the solar and the. international covenant on sort of a little right now was the surprise for you into an international monetary fund and what the world bank when i was visiting them for a couple of the internet year government on civil and political they were very much in favor of our responsible development plan because it is bringing social inclusion it is addressing inequalities in poland we were going too much into oligarchy if you were the right direction of you know by the tri m.l.v.
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that monitors compliance with your signature on the international covenant for civil and political rights no no no we were asking those body to come to us like the venice. commission but i do the same criticized your moves on the constitution the same time scientifically significant significant part of this was implemented so we we are on the same hymn sheet or very close to each other right now why not to take into account those huge international institutions like i.m.f. and the world bank which were praising us for what we've done in terms of social environment you don't get a lot of praise minister for you attitude to the migrants the ombudsman mr butler who you say is politically tainted spoke in october about quite open hatred towards migrants and refugees in public life harris meant physical attacks towards him might he must be kidding and this is we're saying actually from the part when i
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compare what was happening in terms of poland comparing to germany or comparing to france in terms of hatred or hate crimes in the united kingdom against. poles or some other c. . citizens this is comp a completely different picture in our situation we are accommodating hundreds of of thousands. if you g.'s from ukraine from the war areas of ukraine in some part of the europe you have an organization called never again association which tracks racist and xenophobic incidents of us going to jail they said they used to record between five and ten such incidents a week another recording that many in a single day recently they say we've had problems keeping up with and gathering and registering all the information we get how many was there is some idea of it and doing or how many of them there record it in germany and in france i saw in i was in germany about what happens in germany is that happens in the fall about all this
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relative you have a comparative if you ask in brazil it would be probably daily hundred served or thousands like you are a part of the reaction of your government to what is going on there was to shut down the main body for preventing such and for that instance april last year to close the council for the prevention of racial discrimination xenophobia and related intolerance and you did that without providing another body to take its place why in. any event see over the scheme of team things we are taking this very seriously because what brings a security to the country is is the quality of your police is the quality of your services special services and so on and given all the recent polls. the level of security in the society increased people feel more secure and in germany in france in italy people feel less secure why is this so the tens of thousands we've seen much on the streets of warsaw to protest one or other of your
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pain are you going to switch they feel more secure which is which is which is the sign of your most here let's assign a few of their offices under threat really no no no. here is again. i'm a not so objective treatment three years ago you know what that the most gracious were on the streets of war so hundreds of thousands of people you know. not hardly you have hardly not is them today there are tens of thousands you are right every now and again i have not seen them by the way for the last six months but maybe there will be another the most ration which is a sign of democracy working kampala the un ministers also criticized your party's attitude to migrants and expressed concern that we could statements by state authorities in which they refused to accept refugees of the muslim faith. you know we are accepting gradually lots of immigrants predominantly from lots of refugees people my ground workers is the one thing but actually tens of thousands
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if not hundreds of thousands of refugees from from your crane so what you bring to leave it in twenty three so we believe that europe has its borders at the very cells there is a pressure from north africa in greece or in bulgaria there is pressure from middle east but you don't want muslims you specifically say you do i want them to accept this tension so he says muslim refugees would threaten poland to accept lots of muslim muslims as well but not as many as in germany because you are much richer countries because you didn't have fifty years of communism so why did the vatican for the pope's visit here last year issue a statement criticizing what it called an artificially created fear of muslims in poland why did the vatican feel necessary to talk to us to like that i don't know why i think this is one of the most secure countries remember world youth day with pope the front francis actually with the back in vatican presence here millions of
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people in poland and zero accidents zero crime this is the proof in the think of even as a card even the pope himself you have to remind your own crowd of as he reminded you a merciful heart opens up to welcome refugees which we are doing hundreds of thousands or so this is so this is no government your prime minister said in march last year i say very clearly that i see no possibility at this time of immigrants coming to poland and they are here they are just you know they are coming in hundred she says i was initially said we have registered one million. one point three to say we didn't she said well i had no idea what and why the politics twenty third of march last year about if you're quite important you're courting crowd but this is in the context and i'm telling you the whole. context the whole context was that over the last twelve months we've accepted one point two million of the immigrants out of them our guesstimate is one hundred to two hundred thousand refugees from the war
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areas this is our contribution to easing the tensions in europe isn't it is it is it easy is it easing the tensions to try to introduce tightening of restrictions on abortion to try and that's a completely different yes it is this is that was this part of the european union remit it's something that people have expressed concern and and you've seen it so you see the demonstrate you have to pat down you have a bank and. look and look what was this issue was of tens of thousand to twenty give me twenty seconds give me twenty seconds at least. the government has not submitted and the legislation about this the parliament and the majority has not submitted and legislation or what all what happened was that one quite radical. and g.a.o. has submitted legislation and we have promised before that if there is a legislation based with at least one hundred thousand of signatures from our citizens we will get give it
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a go in the parliament so we have done this it was not the project of the government it was for the project of the parliament and it was a project of the government and we've stepped back it was one of the projects of the government to try to limit reporters access inside parliament. access of media yes it was support it was of course your point was a project of from the from some part of the majority party and we have stepped back we have and we have got funded services on the streets you know you've already voted the first half we'll look to see it's another very good example thank you for this because it's another very good example of misunderstanding it's news interview in the office of the stood not minister sometimes it is so it might is my invitation is inaccurate to you is. read more newspapers from both sides not only the liberal media really read also the other maybe. that are part of our roman friends two thousand years ago said which means the freedom to of something it's
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not limited it's the opposite you know what was the project about the project you're supposing you couldn't have a demonstration you couldn't have told the researcher at the same time i give you this is available in the church i think it's a very good demonstration no no no they have nothing to go private if there is a completely left. if there's a completely left is the most ration in one place for the last couple of months we would allow this demonstration to be forever this was the project to create more security do you remember is that your most recent this the really word isn't not or . at least two thirds of the population in poland are buying guns and human rights which is all my generation's buying it and i know they're very sometimes as well no no no no they're you remember the most gracious two and three years ago on the september eleventh which is the independence day in poland there were huge riots on the streets during the times of our of our predecessors why was that because three
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or four demonstrations were meeting with each other in one place and all the changes which we wanted to implement in the in the new legislation on assembly was to separate them isn't it isn't that the good move that's not what your critics say they said i know it they say it's you it's you saying who can demonstrate where and solutions and giving the responsibility to central government and taking it away we . play nice xpress this very very loudly everybody can then more straight whatever they want apart from communist and nasty. opinions ok everybody because this is the country a lot of companies. are crime murders we don't allow. for for demonstrations of that kind everything as they can then more straight wherever they want provided that they are not clashing with other the most ration minister you know what you also you all think oh you only listen to a lot and justice party that's that i'm
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a freshman but of lying just very before very well you are a freshman twenty five years in the business i think it was your father who got up in nov twenty fifth and said law is important but law is not sacred yeah good of the nation is above it so you are your law and justice party doesn't accept the primacy of law i don't know exactly like like the famous german lawyers it would if your and some others they said that the positive his most positive positive approach to law has to and has to stop at some moment because they are saying some things more important than the law of course of course the law is a much more sane person dangerous life of people security dangerous road to go nowhere lane just like i don't want to i don't want to be going to we're not really told that nobody is above the law of the law what it will put in abstract no no no
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and that's ok so let me build a commission as interpreted by let let me be very going to predict and you know very precise not abstract as if you're in nazi germany the law was very much observed you're watching nazi germany go but i think prime giving the last example be freely elected everything was under the umbrella of law than in the thirty's and in the forty's and this law and this is what. the germans in the. u.k. was they were actually defending this was law i was actually doing everything like that when i hear you are saying i don't see jobs or we are saying abstract this is not that you still respect in the league legal positive possibly due respect a lot of course of course for. the law minister the law and justice law and justice know all the law justice is very important your critics on the course during the twenty five years of the posters point transformation there was very little justice
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and very bad people were hiding behind the logs actually what your critics say minister thank you very much thank you thank you. meet young entrepreneurs eager to tackle global challenges in our series founders valley in this episode for india global climate change his all too tangible.
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